Hello!
I posted a bit about this in the intro section, but I think it's worth asking here too. I'm a newb when it comes to the GEK and to most engineering in general, so bear with me.
Is there anyone using a GEK or something similar to run a steam boiler or steam generator? I'm starting a liqueur blending facility here in NC, and I need to heat two steam jacketed kettles. I'm estimating my steam needs are about 120,000 BTUs at 15 psi.
There's another company, Alternative Heating Solutions, which offers a woodgas powered steam boiler for about $10,000. Aside from cost, and being an open-source design, are there other advantages to the GEK I should know about? I only ask because I wonder that without experience, I might be better off with a completed system.
2
6 replies to this topic
#2
HarryN
-
- Members
-
- 63 posts
Member
Posted 11 June 2011 - 12:15 AM
Hi, Interesting project. I don't work for the APL people, but perhaps I can give you some basic information to give you an order of magnitude of your needs.
IMHO, the big advantage of a gasifier is the potential to provide both heat AND electricity. If your need is just pure heat, then it may or may not be useful for you over the more simplistic approach of a simple wood fired boiler.
In terms of heating capacity, if you don't mind, I am going to very approximately convert your needs to the metric system for the calculations, where I am more comfortable.
1 KW = (approx) 3,400 BTU / hr.
You need about 120, 000 BTU / hr, so:
120,000 / 3,400 = 35 KW
Let's take for example the GEK 20 KW power pallet. This will produce approx. 20 KW of electricity + approx 40 KW of heat.
Depending on how moist the wood is, some of this heat is going to go toward drying, and some is available for heating your water to steam. If the wood is fresh cut and green, it will take more than 1/2 to dry it out, if it is nearly charcoal, then hardly any will be used up in drying it out.
Steam boilers need to be managed fairly carefully, especially in a commerical environment. 15 PSI (guage) pressure steam is right around 125 C. If the temperature rises to 150 C, then the pressure will double. This is one reason that steam boilers usually require ASME pressure vessel certification, in fact, this is the main reason that ASME came into being.
If I were doing a project like this, I would consider to use the GEK as a water "pre-heater" + electricity producer and then buy a natural gas boiler for the final stage. That way if your wood supply is interrupted, you can still produce your product. In times when the wood supply is plentiful, then you can cut your energy needs by using wood and supply your own heat and electricity.
Of course, you should wait for a better answer from the APL folks.
Good luck,
Harry
IMHO, the big advantage of a gasifier is the potential to provide both heat AND electricity. If your need is just pure heat, then it may or may not be useful for you over the more simplistic approach of a simple wood fired boiler.
In terms of heating capacity, if you don't mind, I am going to very approximately convert your needs to the metric system for the calculations, where I am more comfortable.
1 KW = (approx) 3,400 BTU / hr.
You need about 120, 000 BTU / hr, so:
120,000 / 3,400 = 35 KW
Let's take for example the GEK 20 KW power pallet. This will produce approx. 20 KW of electricity + approx 40 KW of heat.
Depending on how moist the wood is, some of this heat is going to go toward drying, and some is available for heating your water to steam. If the wood is fresh cut and green, it will take more than 1/2 to dry it out, if it is nearly charcoal, then hardly any will be used up in drying it out.
Steam boilers need to be managed fairly carefully, especially in a commerical environment. 15 PSI (guage) pressure steam is right around 125 C. If the temperature rises to 150 C, then the pressure will double. This is one reason that steam boilers usually require ASME pressure vessel certification, in fact, this is the main reason that ASME came into being.
If I were doing a project like this, I would consider to use the GEK as a water "pre-heater" + electricity producer and then buy a natural gas boiler for the final stage. That way if your wood supply is interrupted, you can still produce your product. In times when the wood supply is plentiful, then you can cut your energy needs by using wood and supply your own heat and electricity.
Of course, you should wait for a better answer from the APL folks.
Good luck,
Harry
#3
solarbobky
-
- Members
-
- 26 posts
Junior Member
Posted 11 June 2011 - 07:58 PM
An Imbert type gasifier as used in the GEK, is designed to produce engine quality gas, which is why it is relatively expensive. If all you want is heat for a steam boiler you could use a TLUD (top lit up draft) or other cheaper gasifier.
#4
RonOhler
-
- Members
-
- 2 posts
Junior Member
Posted 13 June 2011 - 11:35 AM
Hi,
Is the boiler a flash boiler? These are commonly found in steam cleaners - Clayton is one manufacturer. They use over 100ft of steel pipe wound into coils as the boiler. I don't know how clean the gas would burn from the other processes. If a flash boiler is used then the gas must burn cleanly as a flash boiler is nearly impossible to clean all the deposits off of the typical coil within a coil construction.
Best,
Ron O
Is the boiler a flash boiler? These are commonly found in steam cleaners - Clayton is one manufacturer. They use over 100ft of steel pipe wound into coils as the boiler. I don't know how clean the gas would burn from the other processes. If a flash boiler is used then the gas must burn cleanly as a flash boiler is nearly impossible to clean all the deposits off of the typical coil within a coil construction.
Best,
Ron O
#5
solarbobky
-
- Members
-
- 26 posts
Junior Member
Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:18 PM
Probably the best boiler for a TLUD is a vertical firetube boiler. Nice ones available from:
http://www.steamboating.net/page6.html
but they only go up to 8 HP.
They also have a range of small ones:
http://www.steamboating.net/page7.html
http://www.steamboating.net/page6.html
but they only go up to 8 HP.
They also have a range of small ones:
http://www.steamboating.net/page7.html
#6
NateAPL
-
- Members
-
- 3 posts
Administrator
Posted 08 July 2011 - 05:05 PM
HarryN makes some great points about this project - there are just a few things to clarify about the GEK's specs:
- The chemical energy output from the GEK is not a 1:1 conversion to the Power Pallet's electrical output. The GEK with a 3" reduction bell pulled at maximum gas output yields about 300,000Btu/hr worth of syngas, which is well above what you need to produce your steam. The reason the Power Pallet's electrical output is less than this has to do with thermal and mechanical efficiencies in converting the chemical energy to mechanical energy via heat (the transition from mechanical to electrical energy is actually extremely efficient, so is not mentioned here); converting it directly to heat is substantially more efficient and is what you are trying to do in the first place.
- Simply burning wood is far more inefficient than gasifying it; typical carbon conversion rates for a campfire are 1-5% as opposed to the 90% we see in the GEK. Your wood will go a long way further in terms of heating value if you gasify it than if you just burn it under a boiler.
- HarryN is absolutely correct about the need to have an ASME certified boiler and pressure system, and that will be a nontrivial piece of your project no matter what. Fortunately, the off-the-shelf natural gas boiler system you are looking at is already an engineered object, so you're in good shape there. One thing that will need some consideration is the gas supply pressure. A GEK with a blower system may not be providing fuel at the design supply pressure for natural gas that the boiler is expecting. This can be solved by either changing the nozzles in the boiler to allow enough mass flow at the supply pressure (far cheaper, but will take some math) or by putting a compressor inline to make the supply pressure what it needs to be (expensive, saps overall efficiency rather profoundly, and has safety risks associated).
- The chemical energy output from the GEK is not a 1:1 conversion to the Power Pallet's electrical output. The GEK with a 3" reduction bell pulled at maximum gas output yields about 300,000Btu/hr worth of syngas, which is well above what you need to produce your steam. The reason the Power Pallet's electrical output is less than this has to do with thermal and mechanical efficiencies in converting the chemical energy to mechanical energy via heat (the transition from mechanical to electrical energy is actually extremely efficient, so is not mentioned here); converting it directly to heat is substantially more efficient and is what you are trying to do in the first place.
- Simply burning wood is far more inefficient than gasifying it; typical carbon conversion rates for a campfire are 1-5% as opposed to the 90% we see in the GEK. Your wood will go a long way further in terms of heating value if you gasify it than if you just burn it under a boiler.
- HarryN is absolutely correct about the need to have an ASME certified boiler and pressure system, and that will be a nontrivial piece of your project no matter what. Fortunately, the off-the-shelf natural gas boiler system you are looking at is already an engineered object, so you're in good shape there. One thing that will need some consideration is the gas supply pressure. A GEK with a blower system may not be providing fuel at the design supply pressure for natural gas that the boiler is expecting. This can be solved by either changing the nozzles in the boiler to allow enough mass flow at the supply pressure (far cheaper, but will take some math) or by putting a compressor inline to make the supply pressure what it needs to be (expensive, saps overall efficiency rather profoundly, and has safety risks associated).
HarryN said:
Hi, Interesting project. I don't work for the APL people, but perhaps I can give you some basic information to give you an order of magnitude of your needs.
IMHO, the big advantage of a gasifier is the potential to provide both heat AND electricity. If your need is just pure heat, then it may or may not be useful for you over the more simplistic approach of a simple wood fired boiler.
In terms of heating capacity, if you don't mind, I am going to very approximately convert your needs to the metric system for the calculations, where I am more comfortable.
1 KW = (approx) 3,400 BTU / hr.
You need about 120, 000 BTU / hr, so:
120,000 / 3,400 = 35 KW
Let's take for example the GEK 20 KW power pallet. This will produce approx. 20 KW of electricity + approx 40 KW of heat.
Depending on how moist the wood is, some of this heat is going to go toward drying, and some is available for heating your water to steam. If the wood is fresh cut and green, it will take more than 1/2 to dry it out, if it is nearly charcoal, then hardly any will be used up in drying it out.
Steam boilers need to be managed fairly carefully, especially in a commerical environment. 15 PSI (guage) pressure steam is right around 125 C. If the temperature rises to 150 C, then the pressure will double. This is one reason that steam boilers usually require ASME pressure vessel certification, in fact, this is the main reason that ASME came into being.
If I were doing a project like this, I would consider to use the GEK as a water "pre-heater" + electricity producer and then buy a natural gas boiler for the final stage. That way if your wood supply is interrupted, you can still produce your product. In times when the wood supply is plentiful, then you can cut your energy needs by using wood and supply your own heat and electricity.
Of course, you should wait for a better answer from the APL folks.
Good luck,
Harry
IMHO, the big advantage of a gasifier is the potential to provide both heat AND electricity. If your need is just pure heat, then it may or may not be useful for you over the more simplistic approach of a simple wood fired boiler.
In terms of heating capacity, if you don't mind, I am going to very approximately convert your needs to the metric system for the calculations, where I am more comfortable.
1 KW = (approx) 3,400 BTU / hr.
You need about 120, 000 BTU / hr, so:
120,000 / 3,400 = 35 KW
Let's take for example the GEK 20 KW power pallet. This will produce approx. 20 KW of electricity + approx 40 KW of heat.
Depending on how moist the wood is, some of this heat is going to go toward drying, and some is available for heating your water to steam. If the wood is fresh cut and green, it will take more than 1/2 to dry it out, if it is nearly charcoal, then hardly any will be used up in drying it out.
Steam boilers need to be managed fairly carefully, especially in a commerical environment. 15 PSI (guage) pressure steam is right around 125 C. If the temperature rises to 150 C, then the pressure will double. This is one reason that steam boilers usually require ASME pressure vessel certification, in fact, this is the main reason that ASME came into being.
If I were doing a project like this, I would consider to use the GEK as a water "pre-heater" + electricity producer and then buy a natural gas boiler for the final stage. That way if your wood supply is interrupted, you can still produce your product. In times when the wood supply is plentiful, then you can cut your energy needs by using wood and supply your own heat and electricity.
Of course, you should wait for a better answer from the APL folks.
Good luck,
Harry
#7
AtolaPepDeete
-
- Members
-
- 1 posts
Newbie
Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:23 PM
Bravo, superb idea 
Societ Plus - Get more twitter follower, facebook fans, google plus one, website visitor
Aciclovir
essay
трансы в контакте
скачать бесплатно след все серии
порево фистинг
скачать новый vk life
бесплатное русское порно онлайн бесплатно
стоимость страхового года ип 2012
проститутки борисоглебска
Societ Plus - Get more twitter follower, facebook fans, google plus one, website visitor
Aciclovir
essay
трансы в контакте
скачать бесплатно след все серии
порево фистинг
скачать новый vk life
бесплатное русское порно онлайн бесплатно
стоимость страхового года ип 2012
проститутки борисоглебска
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
