Somewhere in all the websites on wood gas I think I saw a thread that said that someone had just recently developed a method to convert wood gas to a liquid ethanol. Does anyone have any information on if this is possible and what the process would involve?
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#3
JayAlchemAPL
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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:17 AM
Ethanol by fermentation is a very slow biological process that is on the order of weeks typically in batch type reactors. Biological process typically like to be warm, but this is not the main energy sync of these systems. With every carbon-carbon bond split from cellulose/sugars to reveal a site for the alcohol -OH to attach, a single water molecule is formed. The amount of energy needed for distillation is not linear. The BTUs needed for the last few percentages of water are much higher than the first few percentages of water liberated by distillation.
Researchers are using traditional Fischer Tropsch catalysts for the C-C chain building, and Co, Zn, type catalysts for the -OH termination step. However, the selectivity of ethanol is highly sought after and there are many exotic catalysts and research fronts to optimize for solely ethanol. However there is much success in procuring mixed lower chain alcohols and mixed higher chain alcohols within a range of C +/- 2.
At the temperatures and pressures needed for these catalysts, water gas shift reactions can occur which potentially cycles the potential water product back to equilibrate to oils or alcohols.
Researchers are using traditional Fischer Tropsch catalysts for the C-C chain building, and Co, Zn, type catalysts for the -OH termination step. However, the selectivity of ethanol is highly sought after and there are many exotic catalysts and research fronts to optimize for solely ethanol. However there is much success in procuring mixed lower chain alcohols and mixed higher chain alcohols within a range of C +/- 2.
At the temperatures and pressures needed for these catalysts, water gas shift reactions can occur which potentially cycles the potential water product back to equilibrate to oils or alcohols.
#4
rutman
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:53 AM
Check out this method for making methanol from syngas (actually from domestic natural gas which is converted to syngas in a first step).
He uses 3:1 aluminum-nickel (available as 'Hyalite 16' apparently) to catalyze a natural gas-steam reaction in a first vessel @500C to produce syngas which is then cooled/condensed. Then the syngas is separated and fed at pressure into a second vessel with a 4:1 copper-zinc catalyst @ 200-250C. This will supposedly produce liquid methanol after separating and cooling the reaction products. Anyone heard of this before?
He uses 3:1 aluminum-nickel (available as 'Hyalite 16' apparently) to catalyze a natural gas-steam reaction in a first vessel @500C to produce syngas which is then cooled/condensed. Then the syngas is separated and fed at pressure into a second vessel with a 4:1 copper-zinc catalyst @ 200-250C. This will supposedly produce liquid methanol after separating and cooling the reaction products. Anyone heard of this before?
#5
pmanske
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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:37 AM
http://www.brightsur...-chemistry.html
Yes, this book is an excellent starting point. Well worth the read. It looks like methane happens much quicker. The technology is not too difficult. there is a problem with gat to liquid xfer, I'd like to know if pyro-oil can be used.
P
Yes, this book is an excellent starting point. Well worth the read. It looks like methane happens much quicker. The technology is not too difficult. there is a problem with gat to liquid xfer, I'd like to know if pyro-oil can be used.
P
#6
stadelma
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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:12 AM
The Coskata method, AFAIK, as informed by Coskata reps. and according to what I have read in patents, they use clostridium carboxidivorans.
The target is to convert 1 tonn of organic waste into 100 US Gallsons Ethanol. This is achived by a ultra high temepartur plasma reactor (>5000°C), then after cooling down (heate recovery, stem-generator, steam turbine, gene-set) the gas passes a sequence of scrubbers, finally feed to bacteria clostridium carboxidivorans which produce Ethanol. The Ethanol is earned abfter a destillation process.
Josef
The target is to convert 1 tonn of organic waste into 100 US Gallsons Ethanol. This is achived by a ultra high temepartur plasma reactor (>5000°C), then after cooling down (heate recovery, stem-generator, steam turbine, gene-set) the gas passes a sequence of scrubbers, finally feed to bacteria clostridium carboxidivorans which produce Ethanol. The Ethanol is earned abfter a destillation process.
Josef
#7
JayAlchemAPL
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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:29 AM
Theoretically it is possible to go from any hydrocarbon or cellulosic material to synthesis gas then implement catalysts to recombine the carbons into either hydrocarbon chains or alcohols.
In the case with ethanol from syn gas this could be done via biological routes (enzymes or bacteria) or catalytic routes (transition metals, etc.).
Comparing these two routes, it seems that there are two ways to look at specific efficiency of the conversion here. While the biological routes seem to have higher carbon conversion rates due to their high selectivity. However with most biological processes, they tend to be picky and require sensitive environmental controls, are subject to contamination by other strands, and are very slow processes.
The catalytic process happen much quicker, usually at some pressure, and temperature (~250C). But it seems that most of the catalytic technologies are not as selective.
It seems like most of these catalysts not only create ethanol but also have side products such as methanol, butanol, and propanol.
Most of the time these reactions create water according to the reaction below.
2CO + 3H2 > C2H3OH + H2O
These processes whether biological or otherwise, still the combining of two carbons to create not only an ethanol molecule but one water molecule. At higher temperatures in the presence of catalytic constituents the water undergoes the water gas shift and can be available to build more ethanol molecules or its sisters (methanol, butanol, propanol). Biological processes seem to be more selective but have more water as a product, since the water does not under go water gas shift.
Separating water from ethanol requires a significant amount of energy to get to fuel standards. This is a major factor in the overall efficiency of the whole process.
These technologies are developing day by day as more research is being funded these days. If anyone knows of any specific technologies that are producing different results, post!
Jay
In the case with ethanol from syn gas this could be done via biological routes (enzymes or bacteria) or catalytic routes (transition metals, etc.).
Comparing these two routes, it seems that there are two ways to look at specific efficiency of the conversion here. While the biological routes seem to have higher carbon conversion rates due to their high selectivity. However with most biological processes, they tend to be picky and require sensitive environmental controls, are subject to contamination by other strands, and are very slow processes.
The catalytic process happen much quicker, usually at some pressure, and temperature (~250C). But it seems that most of the catalytic technologies are not as selective.
It seems like most of these catalysts not only create ethanol but also have side products such as methanol, butanol, and propanol.
Most of the time these reactions create water according to the reaction below.
2CO + 3H2 > C2H3OH + H2O
These processes whether biological or otherwise, still the combining of two carbons to create not only an ethanol molecule but one water molecule. At higher temperatures in the presence of catalytic constituents the water undergoes the water gas shift and can be available to build more ethanol molecules or its sisters (methanol, butanol, propanol). Biological processes seem to be more selective but have more water as a product, since the water does not under go water gas shift.
Separating water from ethanol requires a significant amount of energy to get to fuel standards. This is a major factor in the overall efficiency of the whole process.
These technologies are developing day by day as more research is being funded these days. If anyone knows of any specific technologies that are producing different results, post!
Jay
#8
meschke
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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:03 AM
So I keep hearing everyone talk about the big downside of ethanol production is distilling the ethanol from the water. I've been thinking about this with my homemade wine. What if I make my wine(ethanol) and then in the winter I put it ouside to freeze. Then when the water is frozen I flip the container upside down and let the non-frozen ethanol run out. I know it will not be pure ethanol but it will take a lot less energy to heat up what comes out and separate the ethanol. Just thinking out loud. I will probably try it this winter. Got use that free energy from global warming.haha
meschke
meschke
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